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TOPIC: Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly

Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 11 Dec 2018 21:44 #20421

  • bkelley
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We've been using Duraseal quick coats products for as long as I can remember, with good results. About a year ago we switched over from ProCoat waterbased finishes to the Duraseal line. So far, we're happy with results (there are a few things that could improve, like with anything). Up until recently, we've never had to even think about tannins in white oak. It seams to be an issue on every white oak job lately. We started using a coat of the duraseal sanding sealer (supposed tannin blocker), and then clear coat. The sealer would cause certain boards (I'm assuming the ones with the most tannins) to turn white-ish. At first we freaked out, but upon applying the next coat, they completely went away never to return. This has been the case every time so far, until this last job.

So with a some consulation from a duraseal rep about when to use this sanding sealer to block tannins, I was advised that it wasn't really necessary unless we're going with a lighter colored stain or neutral on white oak. I was relieved because the sealer is not my favorite product to use. So the next white oak job, a 2000 sq ft new install, spice brown stain, I go with Duraclear for first coat. Well, it started turning certain boards a lighter color. This time, the next coat didn't bring the color back around. Luckily, the designer and homeowners actually liked it, so we lucked out I guess. It kind of gave parts of the floor a spice brown/weathered oak look.

Having this happen, I'm gun shy on the next job, a 2100 sq. ft. white oak refinish, medium brown. I test some closets with Duraclear and notice the same thing trying to happen, faintly. So I go ahead and put a coat of the sanding sealer on the whole floor. It's turns certain boards white-ish again, like we've seen before. This time I call Duraseal to talk about this business and explain to him what we've been experiencing and try to get to the bottom of it. He says it's solvent entrapment causing the white appearance - to which his solution in the future was to wipe the entire floor down with mineral spirits after applying the stain, to remove all excess stain. I said, you've got to be kidding me!! He said, this is the way the product is designed to be used. I couldn't believe my ears. So on top of the million steps we already have to take to get a pro stain job, we now have to wipe the floor down with mineral spirits rags? Now I want to quit and go into the lawn business lol

I don't see how this could be solvent entrapment if the white-ish appearance stops on board edges and the issue didn't appear AT ALL in two rooms that were 100% red oak (no tannins). Besides, the stain was left to dry 3-4 days. Some parts were stained on a thursday, and the rest on a friday. We top coated the following monday. Stain was buffed on/off using carpet pads.

After the second coat, I did some adhesion tests and tried to get the poly to peel away from the stain. It was stuck rock hard.

Sorry for the length.

Any input out there?

Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 13 Dec 2018 19:00 #20423

  • rfyfe
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I think it’s tome to try other brands of poly. Many out there. I’ve switched it around from time to time over the past 30 years. I’ve done a tremendous amount of WO jobs and never had issues as you have described. And I’m talking about oil poly, staining with DS and coating with WB over WO.
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Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 17 Dec 2018 16:54 #20432

bkelley, how long did you wait once you finished applying the sealer to applying your first finish coat? (were you coating with duraclear max two component?)

Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 18 Dec 2018 20:38 #20434

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We have used other brands in the past - We had been using ProCoat for many years with good results until something changed with their Millinium/Titan and we had several stain jobs peel. At that point we decided to switch to Duraseal to keep everything within the same brand. Recently we've tried one job of Mapei sealer+poly. It turned out nice, so we may pursue that a bit more. Bona is good, but just too expensive. But like you, we've never experienced these issues with the floor not holding color, etc...

Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 18 Dec 2018 20:46 #20435

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davidpotterflooring, we waited the 3 hours as stated on the product - it was plenty dry before abrading. So we went Medium Brown quickcoat, 1 coat sanding sealer, 1 coat duraclear, 1 coat duraclear MAX. The floor turned out great and customer happy and paid up. It's just frustrating getting different results per job and having to jump through so many hoops to get floors done these days. For so many years we put down a coat of stain, then two coats of poly with no thought of tannins, bleedback, sealers after stain but before poly - never had a problem. Nowadays, it seems like everything is so finicky and manufacturer's are complicating things with all these products and specs. Maybe it's just me lol
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Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 21 Dec 2018 08:33 #20436

It’s definitely not just you, I completely agree that it’s difficult to get consistent results these days with finish systems. Certain application methods and techniques that work with one manufacturer don’t with another (or even with different products in the same line) and it’s frusturating. A couple pieces of advice I would have given in this situation(which may have helped the issue, but obviously I’m not an expert, I’m just trying to share what I can) but number one I wouldn’t have abraded the sealer(you CAN on the sanding sealer but not on the duraclear sealer). I’ve realized the Duraseal waterbased sealer is more forgiving when you hot coat it. Also waiting three hours might have even been too long between the sealer and the first coat of finish. It’s best to apply the finish immediately once the sealer is dry (usually in about an hour). But in all honesty Duraseal doesn’t make my favorite water based sealer so I’m sure it wasn’t only human error but at the same time there are some things we can try to do to help it perform best. Did you roll or t-bar? Are you on Instagram? Happy Holidays!

Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 21 Dec 2018 08:57 #20437

Hi guys- I handle technical aspects for DuraSeal and would be happy to assist with any issues using our products. I’m not sure who you spoke with before, but here are a couple of thoughts-

We make 2 different wb sealers- fast dry sanding sealer and DuraClear Sealer. The DC sealer is far superior at blocking tannins and preventing the issues you are describing. I like the sanding sealer for raw wood, except for white oak. And the DC Sealer for all white oak applications as well as over stain when a sealer is necessary. I always recommend the DC Sealer on white oak, even when stained dark to prevent tannin relat d issues. You’re unlikely to see the “yellow” tannin effects, but you may see the other issues that you described if a sealer isn’t used

Feel free to call me anytime at (847) 544-9251 to discuss further
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Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 10 Jan 2019 11:55 #20453

  • Daniels
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We use the Zinnser Universal sealer for everything, regardless of type of wood or type of finish. It dries fast, preventing the grain from raising and works with both water based and oil modified polyurethanes.
sitefinishedoakenglishchestnut.jpg
LMA

Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 24 Jan 2019 19:22 #20460

  • Pony Deal
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I agree with Daniels. Shellac sealers are the way to go. Water based sealers
are always trouble. I've never used one that I liked.

Also, I always let stain dry a minimum of 12 hours. Always !!! Stain at the end
of the day and let it dry good overnight. I don'r care what it says on the can
or what any tech rep says. If things go bad, they're not the ones out there
resanding the floor. That would be YOU.

I'm always amazed how many people in this business are willing to risk
their entire job to save an hour or two. Sooner or later it always ends badly.

I've seen a lot of floor guys get out of the business because of stuff like that.
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Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 09 Mar 2019 18:00 #20499

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I got busy and completely abandoned this post, thanks for the suggestions.
Coincidentally we didn’t seem to start having these issues until we started buffing our stains on. We will resort back to our old method and see if anything changes. I’ve even had it happen some on 110 neutral jobs now. The white oak floors just won’t hold their color. Again, we’ve never had the issues until recently. These finishes just seem to be getting so finicky. Where did the days go of just being able to put two coats of poly over ds with no worries?

I’m intrigued by the shellac method though. I’ve been hearing more and more about it. How do y’all apply it and how fast is it setting up while applying?

Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 16 Mar 2019 10:52 #20509

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Actually, it is the Zinsser UNIVERSAL sealer, not the shellac. And, it dries super fast. We abrade before the poly. Everybody I know down here in Atlanta does it this way. There is no grain raise, no issues with tannins, no pulling up of color and our finishes last forever. You can use this with any water based or oil polyurethane.
LMA

Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 16 Mar 2019 19:07 #20511

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So what do you use to abrade Zinsser that doesn’t gum up ? Also, do you ever hot coat?

Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 17 Apr 2019 05:56 #20548

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Daniels, Zinsser Universal Sealer is shellac without wax. You can use standard 3 lb. Clear or Amber shellac

WITH wax as long as you mix it with alcohol in a 50/50 percent ratio. Adding the alcohol reduces the lap marks,

which are always a problem with shellac. And you can use the leftover shellac on the next job so nothing is wasted.

Duraseal quick coat + duraseal waterborne poly 19 Apr 2019 18:17 #20551

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I’ve started to use universal and hot coat with either oil or WB . I’ve heard of horror stories of it turning white(clouding) in high humidity. Was Wondering if anyone has had this problem, especially Daniels in Atlanta.
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